Brazos River Rat ( Billy's ) Update

[Carnivalride]

Billy
Were you on the up peddle, holding it?
If I recall, didn't you say the outside plates were up more than the center plate?
If that's the case, the center plate could be holding the nose down, it doesn't take much to raise or lower the front of the boat a few inches. Agreed even a single flat can make a difference but I usually start with 1/2 turns. Outer plates being higher allows more air to escape sooner and will keep the tail in the water more.

I don't know if there is a generally right or wrong on this, but my plates are the same all the way across.
Maybe Loren has an opinion or has already suggested something.That's a good starting point but I have my outer edges down a little to try and dry my tail up.
Of course, when it comes time to fine tune everything, each boat will want its own thing. Ditto
You're either at the point of fine tuning or already there.

I wouldn't worry too much about the fluctuations with the tach.
It looks to be very minor from what I'm seeing, and if your reference is the slowed down version, I doubt you would even see it in real time.
Vibration could contribute also, but on the big end, everything seems really smooth to me.
It could just be the death grip on the steering wheel and obvious lack of good judgement on my part.
    :smile17:

Okay my take on plates is this. I start with the center plate and set it up 1/8" up from the bottom as a baseline. This baseline depends on the bottom of the boat, the amount of rocker and where the ride pad is located. The inside of the side plates I run at the same angle as the center. On mine if you measure the difference next to the transom (5/8"") I keep the ends the same. The I use a digital angle finder next to the transom and keep the end measurement the same. Sometimes you the outer right side corner down to keep the boat level in case it drags right chine and carries the left one. If you drag the tail sometimes you drop the outer edges a little to force air to go out the center. You can also drop the outer plates a little to help lift the tail but if they drag water it'll slow it down. If plates are raised too much it can actually cause the tail to be sucked down.

In short all boats are different and you just have to experiment and see what your particular boat likes.

 

[jimsplace]

On the Cole TR-4's, it appears necessary to run the plate a little higher than some other boats.
I believe Billy's is pretty close to what mine ended up and many might think that's high.
    :smile17:

 

[Carnivalride]

On the Cole TR-4's, it appears necessary to run the plate a little higher than some other boats.
I believe Billy's is pretty close to what mine ended up and many might think that's high.
    :smile17:

So how far 1/4" or maybe 3/8"?

 

[73 Sanger Flat]

Jim - can let you know on his .. But I think mine will be close to his or might just be a little higher .. I need to measure mine again ..

I started at 1/4 up on all plates .. Then we raised the outside plates a total of 4 flats .. Then I raised the middle plate 2 flats.. I have not measure to see where they are in inches but it close to 3/8 maybe ..
Yes I had my foot on the up pedal as bad as I hate switching pedals .. I must get these two pedal line up even this winter ..
I may try and raise the center plate up 2 more flats and that will make them the same as the outside plates and make one one run before I pull the prop and send back to Dallas ..I still think I need the prop under the boat more so it will lift the front of the boat for me ..

 

[73 Sanger Flat]

OK -- I am rethinking this again .. When I raised the two outside  plates up 4 flats  , it started lifting the front of the boat and the boat started looking better .. Had just about 1/2 skag in air two weeks ago  . Last week I adjusted middle plate up 2 flats and now it is trapping too much air again and pushing nose over again .. So , My question , should I drop the middle plate back down 2 flats to where I know it was carrying the nose or adjust the 2 outside plates up 2 flats to let some air out .
I might go back and set it with the middle plate at 1/4 up and the two outside plate at 4 flats up from that .. I know that was looking pretty good ..
This is getting frustrating ..

 

[Carnivalride]

OK -- I am rethinking this again .. When I raised the two outside  plates up 4 flats  , it started lifting the front of the boat and the boat started looking better .My guess is outer plates were dragging the water keeping the nose down OR this let more of the trapped air out and let the back go down a little which would raise the nose . It's hard to make an educated guess here without good sequence photos.

. Had just about 1/2 skag in air two weeks ago  . Last week I adjusted middle plate up 2 flats and now it is trapping too much air again and pushing nose over again . If adjusting the center plate up make the nose go down then the back of the boat must still be running wet. I'd try putting the plate back and moving the prop under the boat more.

. So , My question , should I drop the middle plate back down 2 flats to where I know it was carrying the nose or adjust the 2 outside plates up 2 flats to let some air out . It doesn't hurt to test but IF the back has dropped that much raising the outer plates more probably won't help

I might go back and set it with the middle plate at 1/4 up and the two outside plate at 4 flats up from that .. I know that was looking pretty good ..
This is getting frustrating ..

Have you used a laser or string and placed it on the back 7-9" of the center underneath to see where or even if it hits the skag? What about the area where the strut mounts, does it hit mid skag or? Think of this like skimming your hand across the water flat versus at a 45* angle, which way has more drag, the angle. Think of the boat the same way or like skipping a rock you don't want to carry the fin entirely out of the water for a whole 1/4 mile run with a runner bottom IMO.

 

[73 Sanger Flat]

OK -- Thanks for the info .. My gut feeling is I need to move the prop under the boat more , then adjust the plates to balance it after that ..
I will try the string process again and see where it is hitting the skag or see if i can get my Laser set up to do this ..
Might be going to store and getting me a Video camera before the next outing ..
At least I am keep my Post active and up top .. HaHa .. 

 

[jimsplace]

OK -- I am rethinking this again .. When I raised the two outside  plates up 4 flats  , it started lifting the front of the boat and the boat started looking better .. Had just about 1/2 skag in air two weeks ago  . Last week I adjusted middle plate up 2 flats and now it is trapping too much air again and pushing nose over again .. So , My question , should I drop the middle plate back down 2 flats to where I know it was carrying the nose or adjust the 2 outside plates up 2 flats to let some air out .
I might go back and set it with the middle plate at 1/4 up and the two outside plate at 4 flats up from that .. I know that was looking pretty good ..
This is getting frustrating ..

I would think lowering the center plate will force the nose down.

 

[73 Sanger Flat]

I know , that is why I went up 2 flats on the center plate to get the nose up , but that is not how it responded last Sunday .. i went up on center plate and the nose came down .. I think it trapped to much air on the outside plates and pushed the nose back over .. Hell i don't know .. Fixing to hire me a crew chief and make it his job to fix my boat ..

 

[Disturbed]

Adjust one thing at a time.  :smile30:

 

[73 Sanger Flat]

I know .. I cheated and adjusted timing , plates and removed air cleaner on the last test run .. Not sure if the extra 200 rpm and 3 more mph is causing the boat attitude to change or the setting on the plate caused the change .I will back up with the plate setting and try like I had it 2 weeks ago and see what happens . Trial and error for me .. i will learn one of these days .. MAYBE !!!

One good thing is that  I ran all the valves last Sunday when I got home and only one of them was .002 off from when Galen set them and that was after 15 hard runs .. All the other ones were .001 off from the original setting .. Those T&D rocker are awesome !!! Galen thinks that one that was .002 off was just because the set screw turned on him ..  Top of head looked good ..

 

[jimsplace]

I know , that is why I went up 2 flats on the center plate to get the nose up , but that is not how it responded last Sunday .. i went up on center plate and the nose came down .. I think it trapped to much air on the outside plates and pushed the nose back over .. Hell i don't know .. Fixing to hire me a crew chief and make it his job to fix my boat ..

I think you may be overthinking this.
The plate goes up, the nose goes up.

If the air trap plate is down, it holds more air, which pushes the nose down.
If the center plate is down, it will act the same as if you have your foot on the down peddle.
Is there a reason to have the center plate down more than the outside plates, other than to balance the boat side to side?
    :smile17:

 

[73 Sanger Flat]

I don't know .. I was listening to the guys at Steel Creek a few weeks ago and that is what they told me to do .. I would think the plates should be the same , maybe the outside edge  down to help get the back of the boat up a little and to balance the boat ..
I have your setting and I may try that next trip out ..
Might just park it and start the winter maintenance on it and continue the tuning next year , speaking of that .. I need that rudder box from you and how much so I can start on that soon .. When I pull the prop and send back to Dallas , I would like to pull the rudder then and replace the box .. Plus get my gas tank welded on also while it is out ..

 

[Dry Dock]

Adjust one thing at a time.  :smile30:

Tim is  dead on! never change more than one thing at a time.  you never know what helps or hurts otherwise.  Got friend when we would take his car to drag strip, change about 4 things after each run.  He went slower and slower as day went on.  Then you spend enormous amount of time trying to remember and get back to where you were.

 

[Carnivalride]

Adjust one thing at a time.  :smile30:

Tim is  dead on! never change more than one thing at a time.  you never know what helps or hurts otherwise.  Got friend when we would take his car to drag strip, change about 4 things after each run.  He went slower and slower as day went on.  Then you spend enormous amount of time trying to remember and get back to where you were.

Nothing like being an over achiever  clap.gif

I'd change at least 5-6 things at once to keep it really interesting.  :smile30:

 

[jimsplace]

I don't know .. I was listening to the guys at Steel Creek a few weeks ago and that is what they told me to do .. I would think the plates should be the same , maybe the outside edge  down to help get the back of the boat up a little and to balance the boat ..
I have your setting and I may try that next trip out ..
Might just park it and start the winter maintenance on it and continue the tuning next year , speaking of that .. I need that rudder box from you and how much so I can start on that soon .. When I pull the prop and send back to Dallas , I would like to pull the rudder then and replace the box .. Plus get my gas tank welded on also while it is out ..

I'm still learning too.
This may be a little over simplified, but if it were me, I'd work on getting the attitude of the boat where you want.
If getting the fin to show is the goal, the front of the boat needs to be up slightly from where it is now.
If the plate goes down, the nose will also go down.  That seems like going the wrong way. (to me)

You've indicated that on Sunday, the fin was 1/2 out of the water one run and maybe not on the other.
It can't be far off as it is.
Your speed isn't bad for how the boat is set up now, it can't be far off.
There was a 1 mph difference between the fin 1/2 out and maybe not out.  It can't be far off.

I honestly don't think many boats that have reached their maximum speed will have their fin showing very much, if at all at the end of a 1/4 mile.
Part of carrying the fin is caused by the boat still accelerating.

The reason runner bottoms are faster than true flats, is the air trap lifts the boat on air. 
When you watch the fast flats, they tend to run rather flat in the water on top end. 
If you watch, they'll have a swirl of mist coming out from the side of the boat which is the air pressure build up.
If they rode nose high, they'd lose that pressure and create an angle where the water is just hitting the bottom.

If you have the opportunity to run the boat more, you should, just to confirm what you know or think.
IMO   :smile17:

 

[jimsplace]

[quote author=Carnivalride

Nothing like being an over achiever  clap.gif

I'd change at least 5-6 things at once to keep it really interesting.  :smile30:
[/quote]

Does anyone really do that? jump.gif

 

[Carnivalride]

I don't know .. I was listening to the guys at Steel Creek a few weeks ago and that is what they told me to do .. I would think the plates should be the same , maybe the outside edge  down to help get the back of the boat up a little and to balance the boat ..
I have your setting and I may try that next trip out ..
Might just park it and start the winter maintenance on it and continue the tuning next year , speaking of that .. I need that rudder box from you and how much so I can start on that soon .. When I pull the prop and send back to Dallas , I would like to pull the rudder then and replace the box .. Plus get my gas tank welded on also while it is out ..

I'm still learning too.
This may be a little over simplified, but if it were me, I'd work on getting the attitude of the boat where you want.
If getting the fin to show is the goal, the front of the boat needs to be up slightly from where it is now.
If the plate goes down, the nose will also go down.  That seems like going the wrong way. (to me)

You've indicated that on Sunday, the fin was 1/2 out of the water one run and maybe not on the other.
It can't be far off as it is.
Your speed isn't bad for how the boat is set up now, it can't be far off.
There was a 1 mph difference between the fin 1/2 out and maybe not out.  It can't be far off.

I honestly don't think many boats that have reached their maximum speed will have their fin showing very much, if at all at the end of a 1/4 mile.
Part of carrying the fin is caused by the boat still accelerating.
The reason runner bottoms are faster than true flats, is the air trap lifts the boat on air. 
When you watch the fast flats, they tend to run rather flat in the water on top end.  If you watch, they'll have a swirl of mist coming out from the side usually that mist is behind the boat unless they are running free enough for the chines to be above the water. of the boat which is the air pressure build up.
If they rode nose high, they'd lose that pressure and create an angle where the water is just hitting the bottom.

If you have the opportunity to run the boat more, you should, just to confirm what you know or think.
IMO   :smile17:

Seems pretty close to this shade tree hack.  crazy.gif

 

[73 Sanger Flat]

I went back and watch Trey's cell phone Video and that was the first run at 112 .. I could NOT  see any skag out of the water .. The second run was 113 and again no skag out of the water .. What brought all of this about is that I think the prop was slipping at 6800-7000.. I could feel it in the boat .. So my information on the two runs Sunday was not accurate .. that is why I need a good video camera .. I agree that I do not want to just hang the skag in the air and drag the tail .. I understand all of this , but I'm sure in the hell don't want to nose the boat  in at 113 mph and the boat gets away from me .. It did not feel right and I will not drive it like that ..


I will run it again to see what it is doing .. But I will adjust on the plate before that .. I am not going to run it until I change something to get the nose up a little  .. I will decide later after I think more about it for the next test run .. But I still think the prop is not under the boat far enough .. The old prop has no nickel in it and the new prop has 2  .. It is at least 1/8" out more than the old prop to strut.  Dallas said he will fix it .. He said this was nothing uncommon .


so this is what I think

One of these two caused the attitude change in the boat from one weekend to the next ..Two  weekend ago I made about 6 runs and the fin was showing pretty good , water was breaking about the SDBA sticker and rooster tail down to 1.5 ft . Getting close I thought .This wa with the middle plate at 1/4 up and the two outside one 4 flat up higher . It was suggested to me to bring inside plate up 2 flats after this but I did not have time to test it that day .. So I made that change last Sunday  ..

1: moving middle plate up 2 flats and this caused the two outside plates to catch more air and push the nose over ?? Thoughts on this ??
2: Gaining 200 RPM and 3 MPH and the extra speed caused the back of boat to lift ..  Thoughts on this ??

Ever since I put the new engine in , it has seem to run too flat in the water with the old prop and new prop ...
I know have to start fresh on the tune up on the boat ..

With the 1/4 up on middle and 4 flat up on the outer plates worked for the 110 mph passes , I will go back and try that setting and see what happens .. After that I will go with 3/8 all the way across and try that 

 

[jimsplace]

I went back and watch Trey's cell phone Video and that was the first run at 112 .. I could NOT  see any skag out of the water .. The second run was 113 and again no skag out of the water .. What brought all of this about is that I think the prop was slipping at 6800-7000.. I could feel it in the boat .. So my information on the two runs Sunday was not accurate .. that is why I need a good video camera .. I agree that I do not want to just hang the skag in the air and drag the tail .. I understand all of this , but I'm sure in the hell don't want to nose the boat  in at 113 mph and the boat gets away from me .. It did not feel right and I will not drive it like that ..


I will run it again to see what it is doing .. But I will adjust on the plate before that .. I am not going to run it until I change something to get the nose up a little  .. I will decide later after I think more about it for the next test run .. But I still think the prop is not under the boat far enough .. The old prop has no nickel in it and the new prop has 2  .. It is at least 1/8" out more than the old prop to strut.  Dallas said he will fix it .. He said this was nothing uncommon .


so this is what I think

One of these two caused the attitude change in the boat from one weekend to the next ..Two  weekend ago I made about 6 runs and the fin was showing pretty good , water was breaking about the SDBA sticker and rooster tail down to 1.5 ft . Getting close I thought .This wa with the middle plate at 1/4 up and the two outside one 4 flat up higher . It was suggested to me to bring inside plate up 2 flats after this but I did not have time to test it that day .. So I made that change last Sunday  ..

1: moving middle plate up 2 flats and this caused the two outside plates to catch more air and push the nose over ?? Thoughts on this ??
2: Gaining 200 RPM and 3 MPH and the extra speed caused the back of boat to lift ..  Thoughts on this ??

Ever since I put the new engine in , it has seem to run too flat in the water with the old prop and new prop ...
I know have to start fresh on the tune up on the boat ..

With the 1/4 up on middle and 4 flat up on the outer plates worked for the 110 mph passes , I will go back and try that setting and see what happens .. After that I will go with 3/8 all the way across and try that

Raising the plate will allow air to escape quicker and will be less likely to drag in the water as much.  Both will cause or allow the nose to rise.
Running the boat long distance usually results in the nose falling over.
Hopefully the more speed raises the entire boat, but if anything, the increased speed will cause the nose to rise.
There is much more air surface in the front to catch air than the back.  That is what causes boats to go airborne.